I've seen a couple other posts about snobby bellydancers, and I must say, it's all about the music, right???
For me, I must LOVE the music in order to dance to it. Which is why tribal bores me to tears. But if that's your cup of tea, great! No judgement here. But there is bad dancing in every sphere, and that is when I get snobby. When I see people NOT following the music. They should know better, and the fact that they don't is what pisses me off that they're on stage in the first place. I mean, in Flamenco, Indian Classical, etc., there are rules, and no one is allowed on stage until they are ready. Why is BD so different??? I don't think we'll get respect until we have some standardization.
Who came first, the dance or the music? I guess that is the question.
For me, it's the music. Sorry, I'm a Cancerian, so I need to reflect!!!
Anyone, anyone???
For me, I must LOVE the music in order to dance to it. Which is why tribal bores me to tears. But if that's your cup of tea, great! No judgement here. But there is bad dancing in every sphere, and that is when I get snobby. When I see people NOT following the music. They should know better, and the fact that they don't is what pisses me off that they're on stage in the first place. I mean, in Flamenco, Indian Classical, etc., there are rules, and no one is allowed on stage until they are ready. Why is BD so different??? I don't think we'll get respect until we have some standardization.
Who came first, the dance or the music? I guess that is the question.
For me, it's the music. Sorry, I'm a Cancerian, so I need to reflect!!!
Anyone, anyone???
posted by:
|
Indianapolis
|
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Tue, September 27, 2005 - 10:15 AMTo me, THE MUSIC!! How could there be dance without MUSIC?!
But I do get what you are saying and to be honest, I have found myself asking those same questions and to be frank, it is not entirely SNOBBY...it might be more of wanting to keep the integrity of the dance intact. But it does seem to be in BD, people are taking the stage in a PROFESSIONAL setting (I'm not talking about student nights or haflas where sometimes that stage experience for a newbie is a great learning tool...).
I soooooo feel that some sort of musical background, whether singing or playing an instrument, is a WONDERFUL foundation for a dancer. With that background, it makes understanding the music you are dancing to so much easier to digest.....at least that's my thought :) -
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Tue, September 27, 2005 - 1:34 PMI hear ya...
I think what happens is that constructive criticism can be taken as bitchiness, when in fact usually the person who is giving the criticism is angered about what they saw, and so the criticism is taken as jealousy.
Listen, I have been on both sides of the coin here, so I can say that I have a pretty balanced view of this issue. People need to learn to take the criticism well, and not get their feelings hurt! It's when the critic is mean that it turns bad and the lesson is not learned.
It's not ALWAYS jealousy when someone is dissed; usually there is a valid reason why someone has been picked on. And sometimes it IS jealousy!!
Learning to differentiate between the two is what maturity brings.
-
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Tue, September 27, 2005 - 4:09 PMExactly! I want HONESTY in feedback, not a bunch of "yes men" & "women". I had to endure watching some pretty questionable dancing in a group/troupe setting but NOBODY said a thing to the dancing violator(s) because of a worry about hurting feelings! To me this was not acceptable...especially when it came to a performance that required us to travel and/or we were getting PAID!
Personally, I felt that since I was the new girl in the group (and the others who witnessed this dancing mess had an average of 10+ years dancing), who was *I* to come in & start regulating so I kept my mouth shut, focused on ME as a performer (making sure I gave MY 100+%).
I guess the "bitchiness" depends on how it is said....but truth be told, there are some dancers in the genre who don't think they can be critiqued and THAT is a problem and a shame. We can ALL use feedback and/or opnions....if anything as a learning tool! -
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Tue, September 27, 2005 - 4:30 PMYes, being able to look at oneself objectionably is hard. And not all criticism is going to be nice or constructive.
But, I want to grow, don't you? Even if the growth involves pain. And it usually does. I want to be the best dancer I can be, and that requires some pretty hard looks in the mirror. I'm not perfect, I know that, but being able to take criticism well will guide be towards being the best dancer I can be. -
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Tue, September 27, 2005 - 4:57 PMYES, indeed! I agree with you 100% in all things you posted! :)
I think when it comes to this dance, people tend to forget (whether intentionally or not) that this IS a dance that comes from a culture and group of people/a region not many of us have 1st hand experience in. I don't want to offend anyone in the culture in which this dance comes from and in order to do that, one has to RESPECT it first & foremost! Some people treat it as a fad/trend and that bugs the mess out of me!
I'm enjoying learning/growing & plan to keep learning & growing! :)) -
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Tue, September 27, 2005 - 5:31 PMI agree that this dance comes from a culture and time which we may not be in total understanding of. There should be more of an emphasis on this when people teach.
As far as "good" and "bad" feedback. I too want to learn and grow, and yes, critizism is part of that process. But I will tell you if someone comes at me with a complaint or whatever, please do tell me to my face. There is nothing as bitchy or devisive as people just talking behind your back under the guise of "oh I was just talking about so and so's technique". If you didn't like anything I did - tell me in person and we can discuss it - when I hear it weeks later from other people that's when I get pissed. -
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Tue, September 27, 2005 - 6:44 PMOh I feel you on that, Kashmir! That backbiting/ 2 faced mess is not cool at all! -
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Tue, September 27, 2005 - 7:35 PMYeah, that stinks, Kash. Have you confronted that person about it? That's perhaps the best way to deal with it. -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Wed, September 28, 2005 - 6:01 PMNot one instance per se - I just hate the general attitude. -
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Wed, September 28, 2005 - 8:42 PMMy experience is that when I utter the words, "that's bad technique", it's usually for a reason: that being they really do have bad technique! And it pisses me off at varying degrees depending on what I have seen. Why does it piss me off? Because I feel that they should know better, especially (and only) if they are paid professionals. If they are hobbyists, then it doesn't bother me, unless they have taken away a paid gig from a professional, then that's a whole 'nother story...
Now, you know me Kash, you know that I am an honest person. Too honest, that is my problem. So, you know that I wouldn't say anything about anyone unless it were true.
For some people it is jealousy and competitiveness. But not with me. I know when someone is better than me, and I have no problem bowing down to them if they deserve it.
What I hate is when people don't listen to the criticism that comes at them, and just lump everything into "oh, they're just jealous". Not always. It's not easy to take, but that's no excuse for not looking at yourself objectionably.
But you see, I have listened to the criticism about myself so much that my technique is now very good, but I have forgotten to smile sometimes. I've had several people tell me that this summer, and I am listening! I am. It's no good to dance if you're worried about choreography all the time, and you aren't capturing the feeling in your facial expressions. Making the right and left sides of the brain work together is what creates true art, I think. I still have a long way to go.
-
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Thu, September 29, 2005 - 4:33 PMI hear ya. There is a big difference between constructive and destructive criticisms. We are the same in that if I see someone who is so obviously good I do give them that respect, but I deserve respect also. Like you ,I am on a journey, I take it seriously and I love it. -
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Thu, September 29, 2005 - 4:41 PMYes, you do deserve respect, honey. Everyone does. No one listens to criticism that is mean. I have had to learn that the hard way. But it doesn't always mean that the message is not valid. It just means that the delivery of it was.
When you come and see me in the spring (!), I will work with you if you would like. I've been through hell and back in this dance, and I think I could offer some good criticism, if you want it.
PLUS, if we get this house, we will have 11 acres, and you can camp out in the forrest!!! It's so beautiful, you will just die...
:)))
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Tue, June 6, 2006 - 4:35 AMI've just read all the messages here and I completely agree with you! But it wasn't until I attended the Ramzys' workshop last February that this has become more clear to me. I've been learning this beautiful form of art, BD, for 4 years now, and when I started, my teacher didn't talk about music and its importance with regards to BD. I've been searching these 4 years for inspiration, motivation, sources of creativity and improvisation, but, mainly, for something that would help me interpret Arabian music. My experience as BD student has led me to think that most teachers here, in Spain, don't give music the importance it really has to BD. And time has led me to think that for me (at least) good notions of music, instruments and their 3D interpretation are fundamental to learn and transmit what the music expresses. After enjoying the Ramzys workshop, I believe I've been given a new perspective and valuable tool to dance, and I think this is just the beginning of something bigger.
I'm very happy that I have the chance to share my thoughts and to go deeper --thanks to tribes like this one-- into this fascinating topic of the Ramzys and BD. -
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Wed, June 7, 2006 - 8:48 AMThanks for joining us, Juana!! When did you study with them?
I would love to see a live performance video of Serena; are they putting anything new out that you know of?
Katya xoxo -
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Wed, June 14, 2006 - 9:52 AMHi, Katya!
Thanks for the welcome, it's a real pleasure for me to share thoughts and opinions with people like you!
I had the wonderful chance of attending a Ramzys workshop last February (25 and 26) in Madrid. My mind on how to dance has radically changed. They have given me a completely new vision. I am so grateful to them. Plus, they were so serious and professional with their workshop, I'm afraid I won't be able to attend many workshops in which the teachers are so dedicated and wanting to share and transmit their knowledge.
I'd also LOVE to see a live performance of Serena. The only thing I know is want I read in their website--- their workshops and performances in the U.K.
I'm thinking about going to the U.K. to do the same workshop I took or see if they do different ones at their dance school in Britain.
The Ramzys told us that they're planning on opening a kind of academy-resort in Egypt dedicated to teaching BD, where you could stay and not only learn dance, but relax, and relate to other fellow dancers. Entrance would be filtered, they would be very selective with the people attending.
Juana ; ) -
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Wed, June 14, 2006 - 9:57 AMBy the way, Katya, have you studied with the Ramzys?
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Wed, June 14, 2006 - 2:23 PMHI there; no, my chance of studying with them was curtailed by the US Dept. of Emmigrations, who would not permit their work visa. Things are very strict over here right now, I'm afraid. So silly...they are just artists...but I am hoping that they can arrange a US tour soon!!!!
We tried to bring them here on their 2003 tour; my teacher, Faten Ali Munger, was a co-sponsor. When they didn't get their visa, obviously the whole tour was cancelled :(
Perhaps one day I will get to study with them :)
K xoxo
-
-
-
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Tue, May 1, 2007 - 12:29 AMOne thing that continues to amaze me is how many dancers are only into pre-recorded music for their performances, and aren't even the slightest bit interested in performing with live music. How could someone NOT be compelled to move to live music? -
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Tue, May 1, 2007 - 2:54 AMBecause a lot of dancers simply aren't exposed to live music, and/or don't have musicians in their area. -
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Tue, May 1, 2007 - 2:26 PM...and also a lot of dancers only learn choreography and don't learn how to improvise.
With live music you have to be able to respond to what the musicians are playing and it's likely to change each and every time. To people who don't learn improv techniques this is scary indeed. -
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Wed, May 2, 2007 - 6:28 AMThis is all so true. -
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Wed, May 2, 2007 - 10:48 AMplus it's cheeper and easier.
I have dancers ask me "PLEESSSE play"!!! and since some aren't paid gigs I say "just chip in some few bucks for my gas & I'll be there" and I never hear from them again. LOL. -
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Wed, May 2, 2007 - 11:47 AMYeah, I've experienced that too, weird.
I've had dancers e-mail (because they found my web-site) some I've never even met before, asking for a drummer, and when I agree, I never hear back again and they don't respond to my e-mails. This is even before a price, or no price has been discussed yet. This I find really strange. (Ha-ha) I'm always prifessional, so I know it's not me putting off weird vibes. I've worked with many dancers for many years, and they always say they like to work with me because of my drumming, and because I'm always professional.
A huge gulf has developed between many dancers and musicians, most of it (as others have indicated here) is because certain ones just don't have the experience working with live music. They are drawn to asking about the live music, but then get disfunctional and back off when the opportunity presents itself to actually PERFORM with live music.
Dancers are from Venus, musicians are from Mars :) -
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Wed, May 2, 2007 - 12:14 PMHuh, this is all very wyrd, this thread getting revived after all this time! Must be Ishara speaking from beyond the grave...my friend, Ishara Gamal, just passed away last week, and she and I used to dance with Salaam here in Bloomington, IN. We had the bond of dancing to live music, and we both agree, it totally changed our dance forever. I prefer live music, cuz I love improv, it's what I get off on. However, if you don't study choreography, chances are your improv is loose and sloppy. I honestly believe that choreography should NOT be performed, it should just be a teaching tool. There should always be part of your dance that are open to interpretation on the spot. -
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Thu, June 7, 2007 - 7:27 AMHi, everyone!
I'm very glad that you're still touching this very interesting topic. I reappear in this conversation just to participate with my thoughts on what you've been talking about. Now, it's 5 years that I've been studying BD, and a couple of years ago I started to think a lot about the differences, advantages and disadvantages of choreography vs improvisation. I attend 2 different BD courses here (Canary Islands), and one of my teachers is pro improv. and the other one pro choreo. I see the charms of both, but still haven't made my mind up on which type of dancer I am. Improvisation seems very very attractive to me and I think that it can function better with my personality. But I always end up thinking that improv dancing is the result of many many years of study, practice and performance. Do you also think that? What would you recommend to improve improvisation technique?
Also, when you are talking about performing to live music, I am very interested in this, because I think THIS is the ideal and real show. But in the place where I live in, the chances of finding a qualified musician are scarce. I also think that, for me, it would me incredibly positive to dance in class to live music, giving me (and my mates) the chance to experiment and get used to it.
; )
-
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Wed, May 2, 2007 - 12:16 PMUnfortunately there are musicians who undercut just like there are dancers who undercut- which means there are dancers who are "taught" by example that musicians should play for free.
I LOVE live music- although each and every time it's scary- it's also exhilarating. Despite regularly working with the musicians in DC I travel up to NYC a few times a year to work with the musicians up there. In DC they're all Arab, in NYC they're a mix of Turkish, Armenian, Greek and Arab, so the cities' venues provide very different, very rich experiences. -
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Wed, May 2, 2007 - 12:30 PMHi Katya and Samira,
You two should go on a lecture tour! You'd be great in bringing this wisdom to educate younger dancers.
You all are like a breath of fresh air. -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Wed, May 2, 2007 - 12:32 PMp.s. I was on the phone with Morocco a year ago, she said the same thing to me about NOT doing choreography, that all they did on the old days was listen and watch eachother, both musicians and dancers. -
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Wed, May 2, 2007 - 3:31 PMWell, this is exactly what I am going to study in school!! I got accepted into graduate school here at Indiana U's prestigious Folklore Institute!!! It only took about ten years for me to get in...but I plan on bringing respect to our dance, and writing this down. I will be doing Performance Studies and Dance Ethnography, and focusing on Egyptian folkdance, because doing the entire ME is too vast, and I have to narrow my focus. Mostly I will be focusing on women's solo improvised dance, whether raqs sharki, baladi, or folkdance. Ethnomusicology is in the Folklore Dept., so I will be studying the music theory, too. I'll keep you all posted as to my findings!!!
-
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Wed, May 2, 2007 - 3:36 PMBTW, I'm pretty freakin' sick and tired of these perfectly choreographed and tight belly dance routines of today, that's the modern jazz influence, and it's not *real* raqs sharki...I like the unpredictability of improv, but it is a fine line to dance, between planning and improv. I love the dancers of the old days who had the band, the stage, and the crowd, and would just *dance*. Very few clubs like that anymore, Juliana's in Chicago is one of the few. I LOVE the scene in Detroit, too, Dearborn, actually, because it's mainly Assyrian, Chaldean, and Lebanese Christian. Very different than what's on the east coast. My best friend, Alexandria, started in these clubs in Detroit, and danced at Juliana's for two years, and over in Dubai, Beirut, etc. I love her dancing cuz it's always improv, and very authentic!
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Wed, May 2, 2007 - 5:11 PMRight on for you, that's so awesome! -
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Thu, May 3, 2007 - 7:07 AM"BTW, I'm pretty freakin' sick and tired of these perfectly choreographed and tight belly dance routines of today, that's the modern jazz influence, and it's not *real* raqs sharki"
:) I call this the "Disneyfication" of belly dance. Plan it down to the eyelash, take out all spontaneity, ignore the music when you want to show that you can do 7 layers, make sure it's "feminine" without even a micro-smidge of sensual or (heaven forbid) sexual thought (ya know, not that any of the songs were about love or longing or anything)..... or the opposite and make it ALL about sex 'cos sex sells....only do one kind of shimmy...do over-planned A-B-A-B redundant choreography.....I'll stop now.
I majored in jazz dance at the University of the Arts (Philly) for 2 1/2 years- Katya- I totally agree that learning choreography helps ones improv skills- many of the concepts are the same. One needs to learn the techniques and skills of improvisation or it tends to look like the dancer is "wiggling around aimlessly". Congrats on being accepted into grad school - it sounds like a WONDERFUL program!!
Eric- i do travel to teach workshops. People usually book the more "fun" subjects like sword, veil etc etc. -
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Thu, May 3, 2007 - 8:09 AMHey Samira; love ya babe!!! **smooches** Thanks so much, I only applied three times, and they finally let me in...the tides are turning in our favor, finally!!!
Yeah, me and my big mouth plan on bringing our love of dance into a snobby academia, that would rather think of us as courtesans at best. I will be doing LOTS of interviewing in the field, so I'm sure I will be calling on you!!! :))))
K xoxo -
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Thu, May 3, 2007 - 9:00 AMPeople these days are really going for the glamour before anything else.
I'm not crapping on the Bellydance Superstars in any way, but this high profile exposure that bellydance can make you "FAMOUS" I'm sure has made a huge impact on dancers. It's no longer about dancing in clubs, restaurants and Renn Faires etc... It's the fame and the glamour of being ONSTAGE, with BIG production numbers, adored by thousands.
One of the BDSS is from Atlanta, I used to drum for the troupe she used to dance for, and she was always a gifted dancer. But where were her legions of followers when she was just a dancer in Atlanta? Now she has her own tribe. There are Tribes for "Fans of..." all over Tribe, the numbers of members are nothing compared to the individual Superstars numbers.
I think dancers doing interviews "In the field" as you say, is a fantastic way of making it real, getting it down to the art of the dance above everything else. There's nothing wrong with sucess, we're all aiming for that in our own way, but trying for fame is different.
It's the whole Paris Hilton, American Idol syndrom, famous just for being famous. It's addicting to people.
Andy Warhol's "everyone's 15 minutes of fame" quote is now like every 15 minutes someone is famous. -
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Thu, May 3, 2007 - 10:41 AMHey, I love the BDSS, but you have to put it all in perspective. Not everyone can do that. Those that can, great, go for it!!! I think what they are doing is *fabulous*, and there is little that I would change in their format. However, that being said, what they are doing is catered to a Western sensibility, for Western crowds. They have to, though! If they put on an authentic ME dance production, as you would see in Cairo, or Beirut, it probably wouldn't fly over here for Mainstream America. As Jillina so aptly put it in the American Bellydancer movie, "Hey, these American kids grow up with MTV, they see hip-hop dancers everyday, so they expect a certain level of staging in the dance", or something like that, I can't remember her direct quote. But if you asked me who I would rather see, them or some "unknown" dancing to an authentic live band and improving, well, I would have to choose the latter. I like surprises in the dance :)
I believe when Eric restarted this thread, he was wondering why dancers can't/won't pay musicians, and I would say it's because of the traditional format. Which is, a "dinner theatre" club, with a house band, and a house dancer. The dancer rarely rehearses with the band as no one is getting paid for the rehearsal, so she must "wing it" every weekend, and the owner pays her and the band, she is not in charge of that. Unless a dancer has a big name, it is difficult to get the gigs that will include paying the musicians. Even Dina in Cairo only gets $1500 for her AND her entire orchestra!! Really, once you break it down 7-8 ways, it's not much for each person. And she is at the top!! Imagine the rest of us trying to pay musicians now...
-
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Thu, May 3, 2007 - 10:57 AMDon't get me wrong about the BDSS, my comment was for those who are attracted to glamour. I'm not saying the BDSS are glamour.
I've seen the show, I know that all of those performers are very talented and deserve everything their hard work brings to them.
My comment is for some who are in the audience drooling over the fame, in the same way people would be for a celebrity.
My first reaction to BDSS was that I felt this is something good, to bring this art to national attention, that it's not stripping or something cheap.
-
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Thu, May 3, 2007 - 11:21 AMYes, glamour. Even Dina can't walk down the street in Cairo and not get mobbed. The thing is, if you are going to be successful, have enough work and money to support yourself by dancing solely, then you must be something of a celebrity. That's the Catch 22 of the whole thing. You're damned if you, and you're damned if you don't! -
-
Re: It's all about the music, right?? What do you dance for?
Thu, May 3, 2007 - 11:22 AMI meant to say, "You're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't!"
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
